00:00:00,000 --> 00:02:19,120 [Speaker 0] Welcome, friends, to Faith & Healthcare, where we continue to explore the issues that matter most to Christian healthcare professionals. You know, whether you're in healthcare, married, or otherwise connected to someone who is, or you're simply interested in how God is working through Christ's followers in patient care and beyond, we're very glad you're here. In this episode, I'm joined by a special guest who has spent the past seven years supporting our students and residents, as well as our graduate healthcare professionals in communities all across the South, and that's CMDA's Southern Regional Director, Mr. Grant Hewitt. Together with guest co-host, Reverend Bill Reichert, we're gonna unpack Grant's powerful teaching that he gave to us not long ago in a CMDA chapel entitled Cut Flower Medicine. And that's just a metaphor for what happens when healthcare is severed from its Christian roots. You know, friends, for more than 18 centuries, patient care was anchored in the compassion of Christ, and the truth that every person is made in the image of God. You're gonna hear how modern healthcare has drifted from those roots, the sobering lessons that actually we can draw from the 1930s and '40s, the Nazi-era medicine, and the hope that we find when Christian healthcare professionals reclaim our true heritage, caring for others as image-bearers of God with Christ's compassion at the center. We'll also explore the vital role of campus and community ministries in mentoring the next generation of physicians, dentists, and healthcare professionals to stand firm in their faith. So let's dive in. 00:02:19,120 --> 00:02:37,660 [Speaker 0] Well, today on Faith & Healthcare, um, we have such a special guest who's gonna challenge us in our thinking, in our conversation, that I decided I wanted a real pro to co-host the program today, and that's Reverend Bill Reichert, who's our Vice President of Campus and Community Ministries, who has his own podcast. He's a podcast professional. 00:02:37,660 --> 00:02:38,160 [Speaker 1] [laughs] 00:02:38,160 --> 00:02:40,500 [Speaker 0] So welcome to Faith & Healthcare, Bill. 00:02:40,500 --> 00:02:46,480 [Speaker 1] Thanks, Mike, for the, allowing me to, uh, uh, be shotgun here as we, uh, have this great conversation with Grant today. 00:02:46,480 --> 00:02:51,240 [Speaker 0] Yeah. Well, for our listeners, Faith & Healthcare, one of the ways that we demonstrate that- 00:02:51,240 --> 00:02:51,250 [Speaker 1] Mm-hmm 00:02:51,250 --> 00:02:57,480 [Speaker 0] ... in our resources, our, our people, is that our vice president, as well as four regional directors- 00:02:57,480 --> 00:02:57,510 [Speaker 1] Mm-hmm 00:02:57,510 --> 00:02:59,440 [Speaker 0] ... are all ministry professionals. 00:02:59,440 --> 00:02:59,800 [Speaker 1] Mm-hmm. 00:02:59,800 --> 00:03:04,840 [Speaker 0] The... Just tell us h- what that looks like, and then I wa- I want you to tell the folks about your own podcast for the students. 00:03:04,840 --> 00:04:06,340 [Speaker 1] Sure. Sure. Our team is, uh, as, as many of our field staff are throughout the US are, as you say, ministry professionals in the best sense that they, uh, they've been trained vocationally as maybe, uh, parachurch, uh, uh, workers, or those within local churches. And, uh, they bring, what they bring to the table is that, uh, how to, uh, create an atmosphere of spiritual formation, how to grow in a greater depth and knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ. And so, it's a... That theological underpinnings really help, uh, drive that, uh, that opportunity forward. And, and of course, this podcast that, uh, you're mentioning, the Student Pulse Podcast, is one that we've been doing for a couple of years now. And, and like, uh, Faith & Healthcare, we've started doing it on video. And it's, it's really to help our trainees understand better, one, how to thrive and flourish within their training years, as well as a window into looking forward, uh, to what awaits them, how they can be, again, uh, a success, and thrive, uh, in the vocation that God's given them. And of course, we touch on issues that are very relevant to trainees, and- 00:04:06,340 --> 00:04:06,400 [Speaker 0] Right 00:04:06,400 --> 00:04:13,500 [Speaker 1] ... and we have great guests and, and, uh, great conversations along the way. So yeah, it's been a, it's been a great journey and a f- a fun ride. 00:04:13,500 --> 00:04:19,519 [Speaker 0] And it's an introduction, of course, to what else is going on at CMDA besides that local campus ministry that these students are involved with. 00:04:19,519 --> 00:04:34,260 [Speaker 1] Well, that's such a big thing, is helping our students and, uh, our trainees understand that they are part of something bigger than what they experience at their local chapter. As good as that is, it's only a small part of the overall scale and scope of CMDA. 00:04:34,260 --> 00:04:39,260 [Speaker 0] So our guest today, it's probably hard for him to imagine or believe that he's the old guy among our- 00:04:39,260 --> 00:04:41,520 [Speaker 1] He is my Gandalf on my team. He is- 00:04:41,520 --> 00:04:41,800 [Speaker 0] [laughs] 00:04:41,800 --> 00:04:42,780 [Speaker 1] [laughs] 00:04:42,780 --> 00:05:11,870 [Speaker 0] So Grant Hewitt has served as CMDA Southern Director since 2017. And in the early 2000s, he was at the University of Nebraska-Lincoln, um, where he met his wife and earned a Bachelor's in Exercise Science, thinking that maybe he'd become a physical therapist. And it was there as an adult, and I'm ... I, I wouldn't want to say I'm jealous, Grant, but I, I will say that those who tr- decide to follow Christ as adults, it's a different kind of deciding, "I'm gonna follow this Savior." 00:05:11,870 --> 00:05:11,960 [Speaker 1] Yeah. 00:05:11,960 --> 00:06:04,080 [Speaker 0] Uh, because it's an adult decision. After eight work ... uh, uh, eight years working in a hospital system in Omaha, Nebraska, uh, he read Jim Elliot's biography. Wow, I wish everyone [laughs] would read that biography, The Shadow Of The Almighty. And reading that story for Grant resulted in a radical shift in his priorities and his life. And in early 2014, um, with, with support from his wife Kelsey [laughs], he sold his dream home, quit his career at the hospital, and went to Southern Seminary. Uh, it was like going to Africa maybe for you guys, just like deciding to pull up stakes and go to Southern Louisville. And then three years later after graduating, came across this organization, which he had never heard of before called CMDA. And came to interview in Bristol, my wife Pam and I hosted him in our, in our home, interviewed, and the rest is history. So welcome to Faith & Healthcare, Grant Hewitt. 00:06:04,676 --> 00:06:07,096 [Speaker 2] Thank you. Great to be here. 00:06:07,096 --> 00:06:13,085 [Speaker 0] Well, we're here today, um, not just to discuss an incredible ministry that Grant has- 00:06:13,085 --> 00:06:13,085 [Speaker 2] Mm-hmm 00:06:13,085 --> 00:06:56,856 [Speaker 0] ... in the South, but because just before our national convention earlier this year, Grant, you shared virtually with us at the headquarters a chapel that was just so eye-opening for me on the topic of cut flower medicine and, and unpacked it for us. It also led to some other interesting, supportive kind of things that you shared with us about Nazi doctors, and we're gonna get to that in a minute. But where did the idea or the concept... When did you come across this? Who shared this idea of cut flower medicine, uh, with you, and what kind of resources have you found since then that have helped you kind of understand and unpack this and expand this as you've shared with our members and others, Christians in healthcare? 00:06:56,856 --> 00:09:07,096 [Speaker 2] Yeah. Yeah. I, I did enjoy that chapel. I remember it well. Um, I can't take credit for the term cut flower medicine. Um, that idea of comparing our modern culture with a flower that has been severed or cut from its spiritual roots, so that comes from a philosopher and a sociologist named Will Herberg, though he may have borrowed that from another source. I'm not sure. But sin- uh, since I titled that chapel message after his metaphor, I think it's, it's in order to quote from him directly. So here's what Dr. Herberg wrote. I think this was in the '50s. He said that, "The attempt made in recent decades by secularist thinkers to disengage the moral principles of Western civilization from their scripturally-based religious context and the assurance that they could live, uh, live a life of their own as humanistic ethics," he says, "That attempt has resulted in our cut flower culture. Cut flowers," he says, "retain their original beauty and fragrance. They look and smell just like ones that are attached to the roots or stems, but they only do so in so long as they retain the vitality that they've drawn from their now-severed roots. After that is exhausted, they wither and die. So it is with freedom, brotherhood, justice, and personal dignity, the values that form the moral foundation of our civilization. Without the life..." This is the, this is the last line. "Without the life-giving power of the faith out of which they have sprung, they possess neither meaning nor vitality." And so he, he was talking more broadly about culture, but a few years ago when I came across that idea of his, I, I, I immediately thought of its application to healthcare, and thus I called that talk Cut Flower Medicine. So I just re-appropriated, stole it a little bit. Uh, you asked about some sources 00:09:07,156 --> 00:09:43,056 [Speaker 2] that were supportive of that. Um, I'm not sure you can do better than Gary Ferngren's book, which I have right here actually. It's called Medicine and Religion, A Historical Introduction, and it's published by Johns Hopkins. Uh, Dr. Ferngren teaches at Oregon State University and has taught ancient history for over 50 years, specializing in the development of healthcare, and one of his convincing conclusions is that the hospital as we now know it was a distinctly Christian innovation. 00:09:43,056 --> 00:09:49,876 [Speaker 0] So he's not at a Bible college. This is a university professor really from an academic perspective making that statement. 00:09:49,876 --> 00:11:01,695 [Speaker 2] Yeah. Yeah. And, and I believe he traces the, the original hospital, uh, to about the 4th century, the early 4th century. And, oh, uh, one really fascinating thing that he says is that in the ancient world, the philosophy and the religion of the day, they didn't encourage a compassionate response to human suffering, and, and he argues that there was no organized charitable care of any kind in the Greco-Roman world, so the world which the early Church thrived. Apart from Christian care, there was no religious or philosophical basis for caring for those who are suffering. And it just amazes me today. I mean, we take this for granted. Well, of course you're supposed to, you know, do what you can for those that are ill and weak and marginalized and sick. Well, the only reason we think that is because we've, we've gleaned from and benefited from 2,000 years of Christians in this space. Actually, they believed strongly in fate. So if someone is sick, I mean, that's their world view. This was just supposed to happen. They just suffered from, from fate. 00:11:01,695 --> 00:11:17,136 [Speaker 1] Yeah. Let's, uh... I love the way you said it up in giving some historical context. Let's jump from history to the present, Grant, for a minute. Uh, how does this cut flower medicine present itself, manifest itself in today's current US healthcare systems? 00:11:19,836 --> 00:11:24,636 [Speaker 1] Yeah. Uh, well, we can easily think of 00:11:24,636 --> 00:11:28,156 [Speaker 2] recent examples of medicine gone astray, right? 00:11:28,156 --> 00:11:28,326 [Speaker 1] Mm-hmm. 00:11:28,326 --> 00:12:26,900 [Speaker 2] From the beginning of life to the end of life, you know, the, the unborn are often seen as less than human, gender surgery on children, adolescents or... And, or the old, the killing of the elderly and, and, and infirm among us, thinking of physician-assisted suicide. So those are of course problems and definitely evidence of a cut flower. Uh, but those, those really are downstream issues from, as I see it, an industry that it's l- that is losing its way, or, uh, lost its roots [laughs], so to speak. And it's really no wonder when you've got voices like Peter Singer-... who was a philosophy professor at Princeton, one of the most influential, well-known philosophers of the last 100 years. Peter Singer argues that a newborn's, a newborn baby's life is of less value than a pig or a dog. 00:12:26,900 --> 00:13:39,920 [Speaker 0] And, and a celebrated... You, you shared at chapel that a very celebrated philosopher, uh, who I believe may have just retired, uh, but, uh, he, uh, friendly... Uh, actually friends with a, with a very powerful voice in the Ivy League, Robbie George, who's been a speaker at our national convention, and the two have had friendly debates together. Uh, Robbie George would say, "This is the way to have civil discourse with people who you vehemently disagree with." And Peter Singer is one of those he vehemently disagrees with. Grant, you spend a lot of time with students. I mean, a lot of time with students, residents, campus advisors. And so, uh, this kind of information arms you to really encourage, uh, our st- our trainees with their history, something to be proud of, that the Imago Dei has had a huge influence upon healthcare and putting others... Of course, Christ's principles of putting others first, sacrificially serving in healthcare. So how have you been able to leverage this sort of history, true, you know, history that's verifiable in terms of the roots of healthcare, with our Christian students who find themselves more and more in the minority and maybe a very uncomfortable minority in our academic centers today? 00:13:39,920 --> 00:14:38,660 [Speaker 2] Yeah. Well, that is a subject near and dear to my heart, considering most of my time as a regional director is towards graduate students. I do want to mention one other thing as far as, uh, uh, kind of piggybacking on Peter Singer real quick. I was just thinking of David Attenborough, also a real well-known figure, at least a well-known voice [laughs]. He's the voice behind those nature shows like Planet Earth. And at one point, he said during an interview, he called... He said that humanity was a plague upon the earth. That's his word. Literally called us a plague. Now, I'll tell you, you're not going to get a great healthcare system from people who think that suffering humans are themselves a plague. And so there really is a competing worldview here at... Uh, it's always been at play, but es- especially today. And that old saying, "Ideas have consequences," is still true. 00:14:38,660 --> 00:14:40,150 [Speaker 0] And bad ideas have victims. 00:14:40,150 --> 00:14:40,150 [Speaker 2] Mm-hmm. 00:14:40,150 --> 00:14:46,280 [Speaker 0] And if, if my patient is part of the plague, how am I gonna be motivated if they are near the- 00:14:46,280 --> 00:14:46,290 [Speaker 2] Yeah 00:14:46,290 --> 00:14:49,840 [Speaker 0] ... near ter- uh, near terminal to think about extending their life? 00:14:49,840 --> 00:14:53,000 [Speaker 1] Definitely cuts the Imago Dei right out, you know, from under it, yeah. 00:14:53,000 --> 00:14:54,440 [Speaker 0] Right. 00:14:54,440 --> 00:16:50,319 [Speaker 2] Right. Right. So, uh, back to the student question, we have... Our, our listeners may know that we have student chapters of CMDA at the majority of medical and dental schools across the US, and at each of those, there are student interest groups or clubs that they... You know, they gather around shared interests or specialties. And, and for instance, there might be a surgery club or a pediatrics club, et cetera. And then, and then you've got, you know, the religious club over here, which is usually CMDA. And at first, it can seem forced, like, "Well, how does this religious group fit in with the world of science and healthcare?" And, and honestly, our students tend to feel out of place. Um, I've had... I have had students tell me directly, independently of one another, that they feel their school is a dark place. Those are their words. A dark... So, you know, spiritually dark, that is. And, uh, I'll give you one example. One of our really terrific faculty advisors at a, a medical school, I won't name, in Texas, this MD had spent many years serving the poor in other countries in the Eastern hemisphere, Middle East, China, et cetera. And, and many of the countries, or, or I should say some of the countries that she served in were known to be hostile to Christianity. Well, she told me that she had never felt the kind of spiritual opposition and difficulty that she encountered at this particular medical school where she teaches, particularly among the administration. And I, I couldn't help but tell her when she told me that, I said j- I said, "Just imagine, if you feel that way, as a mature believer with decades of experience, you know, and maturity, what, what chance does a 23-year-old starry-eyed medical student have?" 00:16:50,320 --> 00:17:48,960 [Speaker 2] So it, it, it, it isn't just, it isn't just what is taught that makes a difference and an impact here in, you know, in our conversation, but also what isn't taught. For instance, uh, uh, getting this from Ferngren's work also, early Christians were especially motivated to care for the sick and suffering, unlike their pagan contemporaries, but because in so doing, they thought they were also serving God. You know, biblical passages like Matthew 25, talking about Jesus talking about th- the least of these and, and the parable of the Good Samaritan. Those were prime motivators for Christ followers to inconven- you know, inconvenience themselves to treat the sick and dying. And this, of course, is not something that's going to be taught at most schools today. So we're just getting this gradual disengaging from the roots of what spawned healthcare as we know it. 00:17:48,960 --> 00:17:59,819 [Speaker 0] And there is a tendency. I... During the pandemic, I came across one of my surgical throwaways, general surgery throwaways, and the, the cover article was about how religion kind of messes things up- 00:17:59,820 --> 00:17:59,940 [Speaker 2] Mm 00:17:59,940 --> 00:18:16,500 [Speaker 0] ... when it comes to s- following the science. And an example was given, which I thought was so antithetical to, to the truth, which is that during plagues, bubonic plague, Black Plague, uh, that Christians are the ones who hung around and took care of those who were sick. 00:18:16,500 --> 00:18:17,030 [Speaker 2] Mm-hmm. 00:18:17,030 --> 00:18:24,020 [Speaker 0] But the actual spin was that the Christians saw this as a s- a spiritual issue and that people who were dying, you know, were being judged. 00:18:24,020 --> 00:18:31,880 [Speaker 1] Yeah, yeah. It kind of reminds me of John Stonestreet from the, uh, Colson Center says, you know, "They'll, they'll miss us when we're gone." They don't often understand- 00:18:31,880 --> 00:18:31,890 [Speaker 0] Yeah 00:18:31,890 --> 00:19:03,070 [Speaker 1] ... how, uh, the Christian community, the faith community bolsters up, uh, society, culture, and, and serves in these sacrificial ways historically and, and even in today's, uh, uh, context. It's, uh... Yeah, sometimes it's... And then it's too late when those cut flowers begin to wither and die.... people begin to scratch their head and go, "Well, how do we recapture that?" And the worldviews that are usually set up in opposition to Christian faith aren't suited to really, to cause really human flourishing. 00:19:03,070 --> 00:19:03,529 [Speaker 0] You know, Grant- 00:19:03,530 --> 00:19:03,760 [Speaker 2] Yeah. Mi- 00:19:03,760 --> 00:19:11,500 [Speaker 0] ... before, before we move on to th- the next topic, which is, uh, something you did a lot of reading about, which is, uh- 00:19:11,500 --> 00:19:11,889 [Speaker 2] Mm-hmm 00:19:11,889 --> 00:19:29,899 [Speaker 0] ... com- comparing where [laughs] we are now to maybe where things were in the 1930s. But, um, a- as I was doing a little bit of research, uh, after your chapel, in, in terms of this cut flower medicine, all, my Google search, ChatGPT, uh, search, all came up with very secular attempts- 00:19:29,899 --> 00:19:29,899 [Speaker 2] Mm-hmm 00:19:29,899 --> 00:19:35,070 [Speaker 0] ... even by Ivy League schools. It, there's a recognition that things aren't as good as they used to be- 00:19:35,070 --> 00:19:35,129 [Speaker 2] Mm-hmm 00:19:35,129 --> 00:20:00,169 [Speaker 0] ... in terms of taking care of patients in a way that we used to. And so, uh, alternative [laughs] medicine, integrative medicine, all kinds of secular approaches, whole person care, but almost no mention really of the kind of spiritual care, faith and healthcare that you and I at, at CMDA talk to people about all the time. There's these other alternatives, but there's a recognition something's broken. 00:20:00,169 --> 00:20:00,360 [Speaker 2] Mm-hmm. 00:20:00,360 --> 00:20:03,669 [Speaker 0] Something incredible is missing. 00:20:03,669 --> 00:21:28,530 [Speaker 2] You know, we're... [sighs] I know everyone is trying, but s- something is missing, and I, I wanna share. That reminds me of a, of something. I wanna share this story. Uh, some years ago, I sat in on three or four talks by a hospital chaplain up in Nebraska, and her topic was basically that how, uh, patients shouldn't just focus on their physical body, but their soul as well. And each talk was probably 30 minutes or so. Um, plenty of time to say something of value. Well, after about two hours of speaking total, with all the talks, this chaplain did not mention even the word God a single time, never alluded to the Bible, or, or definitely did not say Ju- the word Jesus at any time, not once. Everything was spirit and spiritual, you know, vag- vague references like that. And, and I guess in some contexts, that might be expected, but, uh, this particular hospital, I'm not gonna name it, but this particular hospital, right in its mission statement, the very first line of its mission statement talked about the healing ministry of Jesus Christ. And it wasn't, you know, it wasn't the healing ministry of the Golden Buddha or the s- the spirit [laughs] in the sky. You know [laughs]? It was Jesus. So if the paid religious person doesn't know what to do or say, literally paid to provide [laughs] religious care, how far have we drifted? 00:21:28,530 --> 00:21:43,050 [Speaker 1] Well, I don't know if we wanna go a little bit deeper. I mean, we talked a little bit about, uh, Nazi Germany and kinda the eugenics and the things that kinda drove the, the, the medical world in the '30s and '40s in Germany. Um, 00:21:43,050 --> 00:21:54,490 [Speaker 1] those things just didn't happen out of, you know, out of nothing. They, they, there was something upstream that was driving them, certain ideologies, certain beliefs, worldviews. 00:21:54,490 --> 00:22:19,030 [Speaker 1] What's true back then can be displayed even today, just maybe d- packaged a little differently. So how is the, h- how, what were some of the driving worldview forces that kind of, uh, one, captured a culture in the '30s and '40s in Europe to, to go down the path that they did, uh, destructively, uh, violating the Imago Dei, and, uh, and what are some of the parallels for today that we can learn from? 00:22:19,030 --> 00:25:21,250 [Speaker 2] Yeah. W- well, as you asked that question, Bill, it occurred to me. It, it seems that many people are compared when they get upset, they compare others to Nazis and Hitler and all the rest, and it's just thrown around haphazardly. And that, of course, w- we shouldn't do that. But there are, on the other hand, legitimate lessons that we should learn from what happened there. And, and, and I'm glad that you point out ideological falsehoods because there were several at play with Nazi medicine in particular. And I, I do think we can tend to dismiss the Nazis sometimes as if they were, like, some alien race of beings who will never visit planet Earth again, [laughs] you know? They're just evil through and through and had no real thought behind what they did, and that, that's just not the case. These were people with hopes, dreams, families, and a worldview that allowed them to make sense of what they were doing, and they clearly grounded what they were doing in science. Science, a- as they understood it. One Nazi doctor, he said that it was their duty to accelerate, and get this, this is the kind of scientific worldview they had, it was, it was their duty to accelerate biological evolution by eliminate, eliminating morally inferior people or physically inferior people. So I, I don't have, I don't have the quote, but basically he said that in prehistoric times it was just the environment and those factors that weeded out inferior beings and inferior humans. And so that kind of natural selection was necessary for the advancement of human ra- the human race. But now, it's, it's our duty, it's the duty of an organization to do the job of natural selection, so-called. So they thought that unless the genetically defective or lesser humans were eliminated, it would hurt our entire species. And o- one physician, uh, one Nazi physician said, I remember reading this, he said that their killing or what they were doing was, quote, "Nothing but applied biology." Nothing but applied biology, that's what they were doing. And one comment from a faculty member at the University of Berlin Medical School, he taught that each doctor was not to just be a, a caretaker for the sick, but was to be a, get these, get these lines, "a cultivator of the genes and a biological soldier."So they did give great thought, deep thought to what they were doing, and they grounded it in science. Follow the science, I guess. Uh, I say that tongue in cheek, sadly. Um, you know, and you know, f- furthermore, their final solution, I'm sure most of our listeners have heard of this and are familiar with the, the final solu- solution to eradicate 00:25:21,250 --> 00:26:32,069 [Speaker 2] Jews, in particular. They said that that... They called what they were doing healthcare. They literally called their concentration camps a public health venture. The Nazi message was that all of their killing was medical, medically indicated, and carried out by doctors. It was sick. And, you know, I, I guess as long as you can label a procedure or medication or a movement... I guess if you can just label it healthcare, you can literally get away with murder. And one... And I'll... And I've, I've got to bring this up. I was just thinking about this while I was thinking about our, our, our podcast. There was a, a science fiction author named Philip Dick. I think he, uh... Men in the High Castle and maybe, um... I can't remember. Minority Report and some others. But a, a, a prolific sci-fi author who talked a good bit about manipulating people, and he's got a quote. Just look it up. He said that if you can control the meaning of words, you can control the people who must use the words. 00:26:32,070 --> 00:26:58,070 [Speaker 2] And this has application all over the place, all over the place. So yeah. There are a lot of powerful lessons that can and should be learned from Nazi medicine. It shouldn't be dismissed just because the, the, the parallel is overplayed and, and innappropriately used. We shouldn't shirk away from these uncomfortable, um, similarities. 00:26:58,070 --> 00:27:12,470 [Speaker 0] Grant, you, you shared a, a great deal with us and a lot of pictures in that chapel. A- a- any final things that you want our listeners to hear about what, what you've learned, uh, from your reading, um, on the Nazi doctors? 00:27:12,470 --> 00:29:25,730 [Speaker 2] Yeah, there is definitely one thing I wanna bring up and, and that is, uh, my primary resource for this comparison was a book written by a Dr. Robert Lifton called The Nazi Doctors: Medical Killing and the Psychology of Genocide. Now that subtitle, the Psychology of Genocide, is really important because Dr. Lifton was, uh... He, he might still be alive, but he was a psychiatrist who took a special interest in understanding the psychology behind these doctors' actions. And, you know, the- these guys, these doctors had families, they went home at night, they kissed their wives and children, they woke up the next day to go to work, go to work, perform experiments, sterilize handicapped, et cetera, et cetera. So Lifton, he, he, he does a lot of interviewing with survivors. He calls their ability to live a completely different life from work compared to home, he calls it doubling. He calls it doubling as in there were basically two personalities at work. There... He says that there was a sense that what happened at the concentration camps didn't count. In the minds of the doctors, what they were doing when they were at work at these camps, it didn't really count as if... And he says this. A v- as if they were on a foreign world which had different rules on it. And he calls their coping mechanism psychic numbing, as in they became numb to the harm they were causing. In, in their minds, they, they rationalized it by just saying they were doing their job. They were doing what they were taught in medical school. And, and o- one more comment on that. These... The Nazis did not use off-putting words to describe what they were doing. One particular researcher, he had combed through thousands of pages of concentration camp documents, and he did not find the word kill or murder at all in relation to humans. They just talked about s- making selections or ramp duty, which is where they would make selections. So anyway, there was definitely some manipulation of, of words here also. 00:29:25,730 --> 00:29:26,290 [Speaker 1] Yeah. Yeah. It reminds- 00:29:26,290 --> 00:29:26,300 [Speaker 0] Yeah 00:29:26,300 --> 00:29:32,629 [Speaker 1] ... me of the term selective reduction. Uh, when you're in, in IVF, when you have too many pregnancies- 00:29:32,690 --> 00:29:32,699 [Speaker 2] Mm-hmm 00:29:32,699 --> 00:29:54,230 [Speaker 1] ... uh, and that there's a selective reduction. Not a ter- Not even a termination of pregnancy actually. Right. Yeah. I mean, we're always tempted to... And you see it now even currently how we use euphemistic terms to k- you know, to kind of mask or, or downplay what's actually being done. So it's, it's h- you know, happens today even so in the way we talk about some of the difficult issues like transgender medicine and, and, and abortion and stuff like that. 00:29:54,230 --> 00:29:55,929 [Speaker 0] Yeah. Upper surgery, lower surgery. 00:29:55,929 --> 00:29:56,129 [Speaker 1] Mm-hmm. 00:29:56,129 --> 00:29:59,870 [Speaker 0] And for this general surgeon, it's bilateral mastectomy. Why are we changing the terminology? 00:29:59,870 --> 00:30:00,149 [Speaker 1] Exactly. 00:30:00,149 --> 00:30:01,929 [Speaker 0] But, uh, it makes it more acceptable. 00:30:01,929 --> 00:30:02,530 [Speaker 1] Exactly. 00:30:02,530 --> 00:30:03,830 [Speaker 0] Yeah. 00:30:03,830 --> 00:30:06,540 [Speaker 1] Well, let's, uh... We're gonna switch gears. [laughs] 00:30:06,540 --> 00:30:06,550 [Speaker 0] [laughs] 00:30:06,550 --> 00:30:49,469 [Speaker 1] We're gonna go from talking about some of these very... And, and important nevertheless, but, uh, difficult subjects. But to talk about some of you... The work you do day-to-day because, um, you, you obviously are being able to take this message in- with you when you travel and talk with students and, and you do a lot of work in, in the Southeast and, and working with campus chapters, but also communities. And I, I'd like to focus on that given that that's been a big part of our work, uh, as a team currently, is seeing community ministries throughout the US within CMDA, uh, flourish and, and thrive. Uh, would you mind just talking a little bit as you've seen it, you know, worked out in the course of, of the, the opportunities that you have in the South, 00:30:49,530 --> 00:30:58,429 [Speaker 1] what's the benefit? Why is it important that we invest as a ministry with our, uh, graduate docs, the community chapters throughout, throughout the US? Why is that important? 00:31:00,442 --> 00:31:28,962 [Speaker 2] Well, I think sharing a particular example would go a long way here. Um, and our listeners may know that we do have those community chapters or professionals who have organized into a group scattered also throughout this four regions in CMDA, not as many as the student chapters but definitely, uh, plenty. And Knoxville, Tennessee comes to mind, and, uh, a particular physician... Excuse me? 00:31:28,962 --> 00:31:31,611 [Speaker 0] Just down the road from us in Bristol. Yeah, we know- 00:31:31,611 --> 00:31:31,712 [Speaker 2] [laughs] There you go 00:31:31,712 --> 00:31:34,242 [Speaker 0] ...we know Dr. Bill Geiger and his council very well. 00:31:34,242 --> 00:31:35,121 [Speaker 1] Mm-hmm. 00:31:35,121 --> 00:32:28,462 [Speaker 2] Wonderful man. Well, once upon a time, there wasn't a council, and there wasn't Dr. Geiger there, right? When he moved to Knoxville, uh, he reached out wondering what was there CMDA-wise and there was nothing. And thank God, he had the heart to start a community chapter even though he knew, maybe he knew one person. But I worked with him and helped him. And since that time, fast-forward, a dental school and a medical school have opened up there, both of which now have student chapters. And so, what's really neat is that that community chapter that they established before there was a medical or dental school, that has been a regular source of guidance and mentoring and fellowship for all of the students. So you never know why God might want you to start a group. And we'd, of course, love to see more of that happen across the country. 00:32:28,462 --> 00:33:21,902 [Speaker 1] Yeah. And it doesn't take a lot. It takes, well, in Bill's case, someone who is willing to take that next step, to be faithful. Um, it takes a small group of individuals who can kind of covenant together and say, "We want to see something like this develop." Uh, there's, you know, there's a little bit of, uh, prep, foundational work, but really, it's about just taking that next step and, uh, you know, of course, communicating to us because the work you do, Grant, and as well as the other RDs do so well, is the coaching and helping them do what's best next in this process of seeing a community thrive. And, uh, and you know, we talk about students so often, but what's really gonna make them thrive and flourish and make it, their faith sustainable, is making sure that after those training years, they have a place to land, uh, in a community that God places them. And then they can begin to grow in their faith even s- even still. 00:33:21,902 --> 00:33:25,302 [Speaker 0] Right. Yeah. We talk about a lifetime. I mean- 00:33:25,302 --> 00:33:25,702 [Speaker 1] Yeah 00:33:25,702 --> 00:33:36,442 [Speaker 0] ...there's no reason for Christians in healthcare not to walk along this, uh, campus and community ministry for a lifetime. And even into retirement, as Bill Geiger has shown us, their ministry continues. 00:33:36,442 --> 00:34:02,581 [Speaker 1] Well, our current president, Dr. Omari Hodge, is a great testimony to this. Uh, he was a student at Morehouse. I had just started with CMDA, but I, we intersected some while he was at Morehouse School of Medicine in Atlanta, and then stayed connected with us through residency, and then came back as an attending doc to Atlanta, then became part of our council, our leadership team. And, uh, so that continuity of connection and growth involvement is, uh, just so essential. 00:34:02,581 --> 00:34:36,132 [Speaker 0] So Bill and Grant, you know, over the last couple, three years, uh, previous specific plan that we launched when I became CEO, um, had a, had a couple, three different major objectives. And then we did a second cycle for this current three years from 2024 through 2027, and I was just very, thrilled that you and your team said, "We see the value and the need for more community chapters." And so we want to enlarge, uh, new chap- increase new chapters in every single region by 20% per year, and the- 00:34:36,132 --> 00:34:36,132 [Speaker 2] Mm-hmm 00:34:36,132 --> 00:34:45,511 [Speaker 0] ...those that exist, we want to put together a scorecard and strengthen those that exist by measures that, of 20%, things that we can measure for the activities of that- 00:34:45,511 --> 00:34:45,511 [Speaker 2] Mm-hmm 00:34:45,511 --> 00:34:50,442 [Speaker 0] ...local ministry. So, Grant, how has it been working for you in the South- 00:34:50,442 --> 00:34:50,451 [Speaker 2] Mm-hmm 00:34:50,451 --> 00:35:06,761 [Speaker 0] ...in terms of looking for communities that are ripe, that have the right elements, the right people, like a Bill Geiger in Knoxville, who are ready and God is prepared to take on starting a community chapter? 00:35:06,761 --> 00:36:05,422 [Speaker 2] Yeah. Well, it's different everywhere, as you can imagine. Uh, but last week, I was on the road traveling for this very purpose, so I'll mention a recent example. I was in Fayetteville, Arkansas, where a handful of docs had for some time wanted to do something. They knew they wanted to get together. They knew they wanted to have fellowship and maybe minister to students. It wasn't well-defined. But anyway, they reached out to me. We discussed some potential next steps and finally set up a meeting where I could physically attend. And it was great. Each of them invited another Christian doc or resident, and we met in one of their homes. We had dinner together, strategized, talked about how each one was kind of uniquely positioned in their hospital or clinic. We prayed together and planned the next meeting. It was pretty cool. And that was [laughs] the great illustration of just using, uh, 00:36:05,422 --> 00:36:30,882 [Speaker 2] people with a similar mission and with a similar vision, I should say, of their area and saying, "Well, what's possible? What can we do?" So I would definitely encourage anyone listening to reach out to your regional director if you wanted to pursue or brainstorm a potential group in your area. And one of the things that we can do is help connect you with other Christian docs who are- 00:36:30,882 --> 00:36:47,241 [Speaker 0] What is critical mass, Grant? You say other Christian docs. What is a critical mass in a community that you've found, or you or Bill, that actually helps you launch this effort? 'Cause there aren't going to be too many Bill Geigers that are willing to go it alone for a while. They're gonna want a group. 00:36:47,241 --> 00:37:00,761 [Speaker 1] I mean, three is our bare minimum. I mean, more is certainly better, but, uh, we can work with three individuals that are willing to, again, covenant together, kind of, you know, work shoulder to shoulder to see this happen. Wouldn't you agree? I mean... 00:37:00,761 --> 00:37:34,784 [Speaker 2] I would agree with that, but of course, that's just the beginning. And so if we have two or three really passionate doctors, they know people as well, and maybe they've not really viewed some of their colleagues or-... or, uh, other church members, if you will, to, you know, to, to stimulate a group. Maybe they've not thought about them in that way, and so that's one of the things that what we want to do is encourage them to consider who's God already placed in their lives who might be interested in starting a group. So two or three to start, but of course it needs to grow. 00:37:34,784 --> 00:37:34,784 [Speaker 1] Of course. 00:37:34,784 --> 00:37:43,094 [Speaker 0] And not just doctors. I know that I've got lots of faithful listeners out there to CMDA Matters now Faith in Healthcare who could say, "Chupp, you better say it." I'm gonna say it. 00:37:43,094 --> 00:37:43,664 [Speaker 1] Mm-hmm. 00:37:43,664 --> 00:37:46,534 [Speaker 0] There are plenty of PAs and nurse practitioners and- 00:37:46,534 --> 00:37:46,943 [Speaker 1] Most definitely 00:37:46,943 --> 00:38:09,194 [Speaker 0] ... healthcare executives who also have a passion. And you guys know this, that there are a number of groups, if it wasn't for a certain individual, maybe a physician assistant, sometimes a nurse, uh, who really isn't, is just a nucleus, uh, uh, um, a fireball who God has called to mobilize the Christians in healthcare in that community. So I, I do wanna, I do also wanna put that out there- [laughs] 00:38:09,194 --> 00:38:09,614 [Speaker 1] Most definitely 00:38:09,614 --> 00:38:15,274 [Speaker 0] ... for other healthcare professionals because it's, it's not just the doctors that can be a part of this movement. 00:38:15,274 --> 00:38:17,834 [Speaker 2] Absolutely. Well said. 00:38:17,834 --> 00:38:28,234 [Speaker 0] So what's, what's next? A listener out there who is, uh, at a place in life where they just feel a holy unrest. There's a certain leadership guru in the past- 00:38:28,234 --> 00:38:28,244 [Speaker 2] [laughs] 00:38:28,244 --> 00:38:31,054 [Speaker 0] ... who would say, "Holy unrest is not a bad thing." 00:38:31,054 --> 00:38:31,594 [Speaker 1] Mm-hmm. 00:38:31,594 --> 00:38:52,124 [Speaker 0] Uh, holy unrest, God has something new, uh, something new for them. What should they do if they hear this conversation and think, "We could do that in this city"? Uh, what's the next step? You said reach out to the regional director. Should they talk to others in the community to see if there's other- 00:38:52,124 --> 00:38:52,124 [Speaker 1] Mm-hmm 00:38:52,124 --> 00:38:54,514 [Speaker 0] ... interests before reaching out to you? 00:38:54,574 --> 00:39:08,914 [Speaker 1] Well, uh, Grant, we could probably use, uh, uh, the, the ccm@cmds.org email, and that would be the place then we can hand off to the appropriate RD and then start the conversation from there. That, that could be a starting place. 00:39:08,914 --> 00:39:33,754 [Speaker 2] Mm-hmm. Yeah, I honestly, I, I do think M- this might sound self-serving as a regional director, but strategically and as far as efficiency, I would say just go ahead, reach out to your regional director so we can begin to talk this out together and bounce ideas off one another. We're not asking for any commitments. We just wanna help. We wanna help you do what God's called you to do and maybe dream for a little more in your area. 00:39:33,754 --> 00:39:54,294 [Speaker 1] Yeah, and what you did in Fayetteville is so strategic. It, you know, we haven't fully arrived at a community chapter there, but it's moving that needle. It's making that incremental investment, and that's what the RDs do so well, because they are f- they are fully invested and, and, and, uh, they're laser-focused in those regions in particular. And so they're there to help, so... 00:39:54,294 --> 00:40:31,454 [Speaker 0] Yeah, one of the closing thoughts I'd have for you, Grant, is, is I was preparing for the national convention, and you chaired your chapel. I'd spent a lot of time reading for almost a year about Dietrich Bonhoeffer because our theme for the national convention was Spoke in the Wheel, and, uh, a prologue that he wrote, uh, to this, his fellow, uh, those in, in, uh, in the church, uh, who, the, the very small minority about, uh, who, what have we seen in the last 10 years? The Last 10 Years is actually the name of this prologue. It's, it's, it's his work pa- actually not his work, his best friend, [laughs] uh, Bethke, uh, I think his name, last name was Bethke, his work on papers and letters from prison- 00:40:31,454 --> 00:40:31,634 [Speaker 1] Okay 00:40:31,634 --> 00:40:39,294 [Speaker 0] ... for Bonhoeffer. But the beginning of that is prologue, The Last 10 Years. And, uh, he has a section in there in which he says, "Who stan- ask the question, who stands firm?" 00:40:39,294 --> 00:40:39,894 [Speaker 1] Mm-hmm. 00:40:39,894 --> 00:41:38,834 [Speaker 0] And so you were talking about the Nazi doctors, and his conclusion, Bonhoeffer's, was that, you know, we, all those things, conscience, ethics, you know, um, you know, uh, deciding to be, to be a rebel, uh, rebel with a cause and to do violence, he said none of those things have shown us in the last decade to work in terms of standing firm. All those people have fallen short. Um, and sometimes quietly, qu- quietly just saying, "In my heart, I know what's right. I'm just not gonna speak out," those people also obviously didn't make a difference. It was those who felt called by God to take responsibility, it was only those few who spoke out against the Nazi regime. Uh, and I don't know how many physicians were among their number, but it has something to me to speak out to who's going to really be putting a spoke in the wheels of injustice today. And, and truly it's our brothers and sisters in Christ that feel a call, uh, a transcendent call from, from the- 00:41:38,834 --> 00:41:38,974 [Speaker 1] Mm-hmm 00:41:38,974 --> 00:42:04,434 [Speaker 0] ... uh, the Holy One to speak out even if it's not popular. And that goes all the way to our students, our residents, and trainees, uh, being wise, uh, as serpents and harmless as doves in their setting. So thank you for putting this topic, uh, before us, uh, Grant. I think it's a powerful history lesson that all of us at CMD need to understand and repeat, that hospitals came from Christ followers. 00:42:04,434 --> 00:42:05,024 [Speaker 1] Mm-hmm. 00:42:05,024 --> 00:42:32,874 [Speaker 0] Uh, and the kinds of principles that we use in putting our patients' needs first, even often leading to burnout for us as healthcare professionals because we put other n- people's needs first, that that is a heritage and a legacy that we as Christ followers can be proud of no matter what the world says, um, you know, about our faith. So thanks for joining us today on Faith and Healthcare, Grant, and, uh, thanks for your influence and seven years of faithfulness. Any closing words, uh, Bill, for us? 00:42:32,874 --> 00:42:46,774 [Speaker 1] Well, no, I thought you put a great bow on it. I mean, again, uh, it's, you know, we're dealing with these big cultural discussions with Cuff Flowers, but you know, it's, I don't, I'm just thankful for you, Grant, and for the other RDs who are- 00:42:46,774 --> 00:42:47,174 [Speaker 0] Mm-hmm 00:42:47,174 --> 00:43:17,216 [Speaker 1] ... who are investing in those singular conversations with individuals, students, and others, helping them understand how to integrate their faith into healthcare. And so, uh, you know, I'm, I'm optimistic. I think, Grant, we were j- uh, saying this morning on a call how optimistic we are of the future of healthcare. We see so many wonderful men and women who are Christ followers who are seeking to, to live out their faith in healthcare, and so that gives me, gives me, I know it gives Grant, a lot of hope for the future.Amen. 00:43:17,216 --> 00:43:18,486 [Speaker 2] Yes, amen. 00:43:18,486 --> 00:43:33,125 [Speaker 0] And they need mentors, so... [laughs] How can I go on the entire conversation with you, Bill Riker, without talking about mentoring? But, uh, we've got a Mentoring and Discipleship Academy commission, which Bill you are a part of, and grateful for that with Dr. Nuthala Thani. 00:43:33,125 --> 00:43:46,286 [Speaker 1] Yeah, well, I would say where mentoring gets pressed down really well is in these communities. And so when you get community chapters, you have a greater propensity to see a lot of mentoring happen because, uh, the healthcare professionals want to invest in students. 00:43:46,286 --> 00:43:51,665 [Speaker 0] Mm-hmm. God bless you, Grant. Look forward to seeing you here in the new fu- near future. 00:43:51,665 --> 00:43:54,406 [Speaker 2] Thank you, guys. This was fun. 00:43:54,466 --> 00:46:53,205 [Speaker 0] What a timely reminder from Grant, that the very foundations of healthcare were laid by Christ-followers who cared for the sick and suffering in centuries past when no one else would. His challenge to reject so-called cut flower medicine and instead root our work in the recognition of the Imago Dei in every patient encounter, well it could not be more urgent in today's cultural climate. And you know, that's why CMDA exists. We're here to equip and encourage healthcare professionals just like you, or your loved one, or a friend, to live out your faith with courage as well as compassion. If you're not yet part of this community, I wanna invite you to join us. Together we can stand firm, we'll support you as we mentor the next generation, and keep intentionally bringing the hope and healing of Christ through our healthcare. You know you can go to cmda.org if you'd like to learn a whole lot more. If this episode encouraged you, would you share it with a colleague, a friend, or a student in healthcare, or one who's thinking about healthcare? And be sure to follow the podcast on social media to stay connected. Your support, friends, helps us grow this community so that we can advocate for and equip healthcare professionals in all specialties to take Jesus Christ to all the earth. Next week on the podcast I'll be joined by Dr. Ted Hamilton. He's former Chief Mission Officer at AdventHealth, and Dr. Carla Park, who's Vice President of Whole Person Care Education and Integration. Together they're gonna share groundbreaking research on the wellbeing of our CMDA members, showing that Christian healthcare professionals experience significantly lower levels of burnout than the national averages. We're gonna explore how belonging and calling and virtue, as well as daily spiritual practices, can protect against burnout and help you be renewed and prosper. You don't wanna miss this encouraging conversation on what truly sustains us in healthcare that's combined with ministry. I wanna thank you for listening today to Faith in Healthcare, the weekly podcast from CMDA, where our mission remains the same: bringing the hope and healing of Jesus Christ to the world through committed Christ-followers in healthcare. That's what matters to us at CMDA. May you recognize this week that the Lord is with you and that He is for you to do His good work. Thanks for listening today, and we'll see you next week, Lord willing, on Faith in Healthcare. 00:46:53,205 --> 00:47:06,326 [Speaker 0] [instrumental music]